Eschatological Core Values • A Response to Kris Vallotton
For the sake of study, I’m offering a different perspective to Kris Vallotton’s Eschatological Core Values. Share your perspective in the comments!
1. I will not embrace an end-time worldview that re-empowers a disempowered devil.
To say the devil has been disempowered is an oversimplification of a more comprehensive subject. It’s true that the death and resurrection of Jesus absolutely did grant us power over the enemy, and it would do us well to grasp that reality. The church is all too often living from a place of defeat, feeling vulnerable and afraid when we should be dominating! I agree with Kris’ assertion that Satan has been disempowered for Believers—but, we have to stand and advance in faith from that place. If we don’t, the enemy most definitely can and will attack Christian and sinner with great violence.
Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you. Luke 10:19
Luke 10:19 is a powerful verse, and it was written to Believers. This is evidenced by the very next verse:
Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.” Luke 10:20
Christians are authorized to exercise power over the enemy, to trample on him and to advance into his domain. What is his domain? The Earth.
The Bible makes it clear that Satan is actually still the ruler of this world, and it’s the job of Christians to war against him.
In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Corinthians 4:4
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. Ephesians 2:1-3
Those who are living according to the passions of their flesh are still under the leadership of a very powerful evil who is bent on devouring them. His plan to steal, kill and destroy is still in play, and those who don’t administer the judgment that was authorized by the cross and resurrection will find themselves under his influence.
This is true for Believers and unbelievers. The blood of Jesus doesn’t grant Christians immunity. It grants us authority, and if we don’t live from that place we are at threat of surrendering, in full or in part, to a ferocious beast.
From Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary:
Christ's ascension seems to have cast Satan out of heaven (Rev. 12:5, 9, 10, 12, 13), where he had been heretofore the accuser of the brethren (Job 1:6-11). No longer able to accuse in heaven those justified by Christ, the ascended Saviour (Rom 8:33, 34), he assails them on earth with all trials and temptations; and “we live in an atmosphere poisonous and impregnated with deadly elements.”
Possibly this passage sums up the great battle between competing powers best:
And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!” Revelation 12:10-12
The primary problem with Kris’ point is that it will result in an unprepared people. What will happen to people’s faith when they see, with their own eyes, Satan raging with fearful wrath as the end continues to draw near? Great confusion will come to the church when they see a supposedly fully disempowered devil destroying people with great, evil power.
2. I will not accept an eschatology that takes away my children’s future, and creates mindsets that undermine the mentality of leaving a legacy.
As with any of my rebuttals in this post, I do not want to presume inappropriately what Kris’ intentions were in his article. With this in mind, I will take some license to consider various perspectives, whether they were what motivated the author or not.
When I read that there is concern about theologies that will threaten his children’s future and the legacy they are to leave, I initially agree! My children will most definitely have an amazing future and will leave a powerful legacy!
However, if we were to read into it, I think the takeaway is a bit different. It seems that Kris presumes “the end of the world” equals the destruction of his children’s future. I couldn’t disagree more.
It’s quite probable that my five children will all experience the Great Tribulation. That won’t be the destruction of their legacy, but rather the very driver of their legacy! They were born for this hour!
What greater legacy could one have than to battle with Jesus against the armies of Satan? How amazing will it be for Christians during the Tribulation to lead a terrified and hopeless people to Jesus?
Additionally, to be martyred during that short season will be a mighty honor. My focus is not preserving my children’s lives on Earth, but rather on modeling a life laid down, even unto martyrdom if need be. Fighting to secure a happy 70 or so years on today’s Earth is not at all what the call of the Believer is, and eschatology that defies our opportunity to focus on that is actually more in line with the heart of God than not.
Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. Matthew 10:39
The difficult times during the Tribulation are not to be avoided, but prepared for. It’s true that Christians who don’t take the Mark of the Beast won’t be able to be employed, earn money, buy or sell or live as we do today. We won’t have electricity, the internet, mobile phones, cars, running water or much of anything else that’s provided by the government. But, we will have the Holy Spirit and other Believers! God will be our provider and we will experience wonders and miracles on a continual basis! What a life to live!
In fact, we will see the ancient church reemerge. It will resemble a greater version of what they saw in Acts 2:
They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved. Acts 2:42-47
Now that’s Kingdom living!
If we really think about it, how could any eschatology take away from anybody’s future? We will be living with Jesus on a renewed Earth forever! It’s all about eternity!
We have to be careful not to love our lives. Our goal isn’t to experience personal satisfaction on the Earth, but rather to lay down our lives and to prepare for eternity.
…they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. Revelation 12:11
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20:4
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed. Revelation 6:9-11
3. I will not tolerate any theology that sabotages the clear command of Jesus to make disciples of all nations and the Lord’s Prayer that earth would be like heaven.
It would be hard for me to disagree with this point. I don’t. I do wonder what eschatology might actually sabotage either the call to make disciples or to see Heaven on Earth.
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matthew 28:18-20
This passage has the end-times woven right into it. The act of making disciples is tied directly to the reality of the end of the age.
There will come a time when disciple making on today’s Earth ceases—at the end of the age.
Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. Matthew 13:36-43
I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one “like a son of man” with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested. Revelation 14:14-16
Regarding the prayer that Earth would be like Heaven, that is a key mandate for us, and there is significant process involved.
Heaven won’t manifest fully on Earth until the end of the age when we see the New Heaven and the New Earth. So, our prayer for Heaven to manifest on Earth has a dual purpose.
First, we come into agreement with the cross and the torn veil. We have access to God, are seated in heavenly places and are to govern from that position. Healings, miracles, signs, wonders, prosperity, freedom and the countless other benefits and attributes of what Heaven brings are to manifest on the Earth right now.
Second, our prayer results in alignment with God’s end-time plan. When we pray this prayer, as Jesus instructed, we are praying to be prepared for the Tribulation. We are praying for the nations to hear the truth of the Gospel. We are praying for the ultimate destruction of the enemy and the start of the Millennial Reign. We are praying for the New Heaven and the New Earth to come.
4. I will not allow any interpretation of the scriptures that destroys hope for the nations and undermines our command to restore ruined cities.
Christ is the hope of the nations.
In his name the nations will put their hope.” Matthew 12:21
Without any debate, our mandate is to advance the Kingdom of God on the Earth. Entire cities and nations are at wonderful risk of being freed, restored and introduced to the power and love of Jesus Christ.
I myself have a clear directive of God to see cities taken, and while it’s quite the project, I have full hope that we will see entire cities experiencing unprecedented revival.
However, we have to also understand that every nation is being presented with its “Nineveh Opportunity.” Judgment and blessing lay in the balance.
God still judges nations for their sins—just as He still judges individuals. The Bible is clear: “You may be sure that your sin will find you out” (Numbers 32:23). ~Billy Graham
From cover to cover in Scripture we see the precedent followed—God judges rebellious nations.
There will be a final judgment of all people at the end of history, Piper adds. “The death of Jesus was God's final punitive judgment on all who believe in Christ … Individuals are sometimes judged in this life, but, for Christians, all judgments are disciplinary, not destructive. No individual in Christ needs to fear God's judgment. We may be killed proclaiming biblical holiness, as Paul said in Romans 8:36, but in all these things we will be more than conquerors through him who loved us.” ~John Piper
God is portrayed in the Bible as sovereign over the nations and ruling them for His purposes. Second, God tolerates sin in relation to nations up to a point, and then brings calamity. ~John Piper
Remember, judgment is God’s act of love, not hate. He desires to bring people into a radical encounter of love, and during a time of national rebellion he may bring judgment to convince a greater number of people to follow him than would have had the rebellion gone unmet. Of course, revival is a much preferred method, but the church must arise in faith and prayer if we are to see it happen. The end is coming, and God will fulfill his plan to ready the church and the nations of the Earth whether it’s by judgment or revival. The choice is actually ours.
God himself may step in and bring to His church a great revival of radical obedience, and a great awakening to the countries of the West. He is able. He has done it before. We should pray that He does. ~John Piper
5. I will not embrace an eschatology that changes the nature of a good God.
God is always good, but his goodness can’t be measured through our human lens. His goodness may actually look quite the opposite at the end of the age when he is killing millions of people. Many Christians will actually accuse God of being Satan when they see their “Good God” doing such stomach turning things.
The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath. They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia. Revelation 14:19-20
The danger of promoting God in such a way that anything contrary to what humans consider good is that many Christians will actually reject him when he shows up in full, holy force.
Throughout biblical history we see Perfect Love, God himself, killing people, disciplining people and exercising judgment. In our limited human capacity we can’t easily equate that with perfect love—but it is.
God is always good, but he’s not always in a good mood.
If God is always in a good mood, he would be a monster, laughing and doing a happy dance as he casts people he loves into Hell. (It’s been said that God doesn’t cast people into Hell, but people do themselves via their own decisions to reject God. This isn’t fully accurate. People do have a significant part to play, but in the end they don’t jump into the lake of fire. They are thrown.)
If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15
If we believe God is always in a good mood, we will reject messages and revelations that don’t result in us being in a good mood. We will associate the love of God with the hate of Satan. We know that God is still wrathful. He still gets angry. He is saddened. He is joyful. He is happy. He has emotions, and the deepest place of love exists when we partner with God in his emotions. What is on God’s heart? How can we serve him and minister to him?
A good God will absolutely function in ways that confound us. The following passage further exposes his mission and methods:
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn “‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law– a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.' “Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. Matthew 10:34-39
6. I refuse to embrace any mindset that celebrates bad news as a sign of the times and a necessary requirement for the return of Jesus.
Now, this statement by Kris highlights his Partial Preterism quite well. Of course, we don’t want to celebrate bad news. I don’t know that any reputable student of the end-times would do that. However, we need to analyze what is happening as watchmen and, yes, understand that certain negative events are prerequisites for the return of Jesus.
Contrary to his position that the world is getting better and better, we simply have to admit that to be untrue.
But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 Timothy 3:1
Paul then defines what trouble is coming:
People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God– having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them. 2 Timothy 3:2-5
Do we see any of this on the Earth today? Is it getting better or worse?
As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains. “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:3-14
People are being persecuted and martyred all over the world today, and the numbers are increasing radically.
Here’s another clear piece of bad news that indicates what time we are in:
He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. Revelation 13:16-17
When that day comes, it will be bad news indeed. And, we must be able to discern the signs of the times.
He answered them, “When it is evening, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.’ And in the morning, ‘It will be stormy today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. Matthew 16:2-3
7. I am opposed to any doctrinal position that pushes the promises of God into a time zone that can’t be obtained in my generation and therefore takes away any responsibility I have to believe God for them in my lifetime.
Many promises of God are futuristic. This argument just doesn’t hold water.
For example, a day is coming when we will be riding with Jesus in a great battle. That won’t happen while we are alive on the Earth. It’s futuristic.
I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:11-16
I feel this point also reveals Kris’ focus on the here and now while not affirming the need to prepare for eternity.
Mike Bickle calls our life on Earth an internship. We are living sacrificially as those in training in preparation for the Great Tribulation, and then the Millennium.
Additionally, the promise of a New Heaven and a New Earth for us to abide in is most certainly futuristic.
We don’t want to be so invested in our personal experience now. We are to die daily, be crucified with Christ, lay down our lives and surrender all for the sake of the Harvest—who will live with us forever and ever—AMEN!
8. I don’t believe that the last days are a time of judgment, nor do I believe God gave the church the right to call for wrath for sinful cities. There is a day of judgment in which GOD will judge man, not us.
“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. Luke 17:26-27
Judgment is actually a key driver of the end-time timeline. While so many are proclaiming that judgment doesn’t exist in the New Covenant, I’m of the opinion that we NEED judgment!
Judgment is God at work. It’s God putting things into motion to resolve the crisis on the Earth.
Can you imagine the police ignoring the crimes of a rapist? There would be mutiny! We want justice, judgment, to come to the rapist for the sake of innocent women who are at great threat of attack.
During the Tribulation, God will be pouring out his wrath on a rebellious mankind.
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. Romans 11:22
And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions. And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days. And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth; blood and fire and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord. And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2 17 – 21
It’s both a great and terrible day.
I will send you Elijah…before…the great and dreadful day of the LORD. Mal. 4:5
There will be two severe waves of death. The first wave will claim one fourth, of earth’s population. The second wave will kill an additional one third of the earth. This will total 50% of the population (or 4 billion based on a possible population of 8 billion people). ~Mike Bickle
The church will be in agreement with that judgment and will be ready to minister accordingly. The church will be in a place of intense prayer, and will, as governors under Christ’s leadership, agree in prayer with his plans. This will not be the time to intercede for the judgments to delay.
The fifth seal judgment against the Antichrist will come in the context of increased intercession. We will be crying out against the vengeance of the Antichrist.
The martyrdom of the saints will unleash a powerful movement of prayer of agreement with God’s predetermined plan.
This is why the prayer movement is so critical today. We must learn to pray according to God’s heart and biblical blueprints, and not according to our own human desires.
I agree with what your teaching. Jesus promised persecution and tribulation to all His followers, even for today. But He told the Philadephian Church that if they endured their ‘today’ tribulation, that He would keep them from that hour facing all the world. One way or another, our loyalty must be tried, sooner or later. That is His purpose for bringing the trib.—to try them so they might repent. Jamieson-Fausset & Brown Bible seems to stick with the traditional interpretation of the Rev. 12 Manchild as being Christ, but it is not sensible for different reasons. These could also be the Overcomers of the Rev. 3:10 promise, and possibly those from Rev. 14 (first-fruits of the earth), Joel 2, and Jude 14, 15.
I absolutely agree with your perspective…and the excitement for the privilege to lead a terrified and hopeless people to Jesus! Thank you for your obedience to what God has called you to do 😉
John, you KNOW I appreciate you and the good work you do. I was part of Mike Bickle’s deal before he was cool. Helped plant a couple of IHOP. One in your old home town of Bolingbrook. I understand how emotional the whole end times thing is. Yet, I hope you will consider the position Kris takes. I happen to agree with him. Not just partial.. I am more a full preterist. Jesus already returned and is present among us. I don’t want to get into an argument. Debate doesn’t help. Here’s my personal short testimony about all this. I was once wrapped up in the whole premillenial thing. Antichrist, Temple, Marks, Trib (prepostmid) et al. THEN after some soul searching, some sound teaching and a lot of research on my own.. the light went off. It was a fantasy. Not lies.. fantasy. I fought against this. I questioned this. I even wondered if I could go just half way. Then I began to feel a weight off my shoulders. A lift in the Spirit. A victorious view of the future that didn’t discount the pain but didn’t have some end that would cause many to stumble. My JOY increased as I began to see the Kingdom expanding, everywhere. I am asking you to consider the theology Kris puts forth. I know Mike has a different view. I won’t allow this to become a stumbling block or a dividing wall. In the end we all will stand the same. It’s about living here and now. Your arguments were well thought out and well stated. I won’t poke at them. Yet, I humbly say… there is a more excellent way.
Thanks Gene! I’m always 100% to whatever God has for me!
100% open, that is!
I recently read another blog elsewhere that made some key observations about this now a few year old eschatological statement… Kris states his doctrinal position completely in the negative, by only saying what he does NOT believe in. This is, pretty much by definition, a reactionary way of stating one’s beliefs. Nevertheless, simply by process of elimination, you can pretty much put him into dominionist amillennialism through the process of elimination.
Most of his objections are merely of an emotional, rather than a scriptural position. He defines his doctrinal position based upon a few over-riding principles of his view of God, and a few other faulty ‘house doctrines’, such as dominionism, things getting better, no judgment today, and a “good mood” (in the eyes of man, as you stated as well).
As I recently wrote on a book in a book against Hyper-Grace, if God is happy, He is happy to Himself. If He is happy, He was happy when He rained fire and brimstone on Sodom, and He was happy when He killed all save eight with Noah. And, He will be “happy”, if you want to call it that, when he throws billions into the lake of fire… Not happy because of it, but happy in the midst of it. If He is happy, He is happy to Himself, and it it is a terrible thing for a sinner to fall into the hands of an angry God. Of course, for the person in right relationship with Him, in the fellowship with the person of Jesus Christ, the benefits of the covenant are “everything”… life, health, healing, prosperity, wealth, joy, peace, righteousness.
It is hard to take statements such as the above seriously, especially as He does not even both with Scripture. Kris is on record as saying things are getting “better and better”. Unfortunately, this same dominionist preterism was actually on the rise in the early 20th century, with the same by-line, up until the two world wars. Now, with the world on the verge of war and tribulation again, sooner or later, it looks like history is coming around again.. But, while it may appeal to people of a similar mindest, it doesn’t even attempt to answer the many questions it raises, such as the future promises to Israel, the interpretation and place of Biblical prophecy in current events…
I recently put out my second book on Eschatology, Beyond Revelation: An Eschatology of the Kingdom. It is, in the end, Partial Preterist, only because that is all that I see in the Scripture, on numerous points. Looking at it from an at-face-value approach to the Scripture, focusing heavily on Daniel and Revelation, I see most of the prophetic scriptures as quite historically fulfilled, including a literal, past millennium, and a future, coming Gog Magog war, after which, there is plenty of time for the fulfillment of all the promises to natural Israel before the Second Coming.
A past Millennium? Really? Seriously? What about Isaiah 65, where people live as long as trees, but some still die? That most definitely does not refer to our present age or to the world to come, where there is no death.
My dear friend, simply look at where this passage occurs in Isaiah’s book. It occurs just before ch66 where the eternal heaven and earth are described.
I really think it is high time for anyone who still holds an Amillennial position to go back and read passages such as this one, or for example Is 2:1-5, in their plain literal sense. The Millennium then emerges very easily, with no violence to the text.
The Lord’s kindnes be yours, always, Chris
Where do these things from Iaaiah 65 occur? As I read it, between v10 & 11 in Rev 20, not in vv1-6. Yes, right before the eternal heaven and earth are. After the Gog/Magog, before the great white throne, when all Israel is saved, is the logical place. Finally, the last enemy, death, is defeated, and the 2nd coming occurs with the throne of Christ’s glory,with the Father’s angels.
Thank-you very much Benjamin for troubling to reply. If you take Is 65 in its plain and simple sense, it describes a time on the earth when death is still present, but when sin is greatly reduced.
Does that not place it after the second coming of the LORD, but before the New Earth, where there is no death? This period is the Millennium, is it not?
Therefore, I place Is65 20-end between Rev 20 vv 6&7.
Death was defeated at the cross, and the initial fulfillment of its defeat is the first resurrection which will occur at Christ’s second coming, according to Paul in 1Cor 15:54,55, when the redeemed receive their everlasting bodies.
Those who are blessed to be a part of this first resurrection, will rule with a rod of iron with Christ throughout the Millennium. Rev 2:27 This promise is given to those who overcome in this age. This reference to “rod of iron” specifically refers to the forceful domination over sin in a worldwide government, does it not? Ps2, Rev 12:5, 19:15
My comment on this period of Christ’s rule is that it is exerted over the sons of Adam, who will populate the earth during the Millennium. The redeemed saints require no such rule, since sin will no longer have any place in their beings. They will be like Christ himself. However, the sons of Adam will require such a rule.
The whole point of the Millennium is to demonstrate that even with the removal of Satan from the earth, and with an enforced worldwide government, men will still choose to sin. This will prove forever that sin arises within man himself, and is NOT merely the outcome of an unjust society. During the Millennium, there will be no armies or wars (Is 2:1-5)
The final fulfillment of the victory over death is, of course, after the Great White Throne judgement. Rev 20:11
Does this serve to clarify my comments? Please feel free to come back to me on this , if you wish to do so. Again, thank you for troubling to reply.
Shalom. C.
Hello Chris. If you wanted to continue, you could look me up on Facebook if you thought it would be easier. Only if you wanted. I find the interchange interesting.
My problem is over-readiness to assign all the passages to the “Millennium”. I see the millennium, Rv20.1..6, and I see this period of great blessing, but I see no direct reason to equate them, and say they are the same. Earth and Death present, I see as before the Second Coming (due to a translation issue in Matthew 24:29). I see that passage yet future, but it is only interpretation to say it must be between 6 & 7.
The confusion, I feel, lies in the phrase “they shall reign with Him for 1,000 years”. Many, taking this phrase, equate this 1,000 year period with the Millennium, in my opinion, wrongly. Matthew 25:34 says the Kingdom was prepared from the foundation of the world, and Acts 1:6 asks when He would “restore again” the Kingdom to Israel. “Restore again” means to bring back to how it was before, so, they’re asking when the Kingdom will be given BACK to Israel. The Kingdom had its beginning “from the foundation”. The Kingdom is an everlasting Kingdom (Ps 145:13 and elsewhere). Therefore, the 1,000 years is only one small segment of this reign. Further, the saints are the ones who begin reigning. Christ can reign before, and Christ can reign after (and so can the saints), nothign is said other than that they will be reigning “with Christ” for at least this duration. But, this does not define Christ’s Kingdom, it only is a very short segment of it that is set apart in the text for a specific purpose.
So, i don’t see a need to equate this time of great peace to the Millennium of Rev 20:1-6, and feel the space between Rev 20:10-11 works better, because the Gog Magog war is when Israel gets saved (“life from the dead”). Again, from Matthew 24:29, a translation issue, I do not believe the “2nd coming” follows “immediately” after the tribulation. This is what, ultimately allows for the interpretation.
The rest of the parts all fit within this. However, the explanation of the using this millennium to demonstrate that people would sin anyway, I feel, is weak at best. At any rate, that part is just supposition based upon the rest of the interpretation… That’s simply what people have come up with (which may be right), but isn’t in the actual text.
Where is a link to the original article that is evaluated above where Kris made his statements? Just curious.
On Kris’ website, kind regards. C.
http://www.kvministries.com/blog/2012/01/27/eschatological-core-values
Frankly I pay zero attention to Kris Valloten. He twists scripture far too much and is ignorant of eschatology. What he should do is submit his theology to a couple of different peer groups on Facebook consisting of believers who are versed in the different end time theories and see how it stands up to rebuttal. He has never sharpened his iron with iron but lives in his own comfort zone is my guess.
Again you’re a liar. You say “I pay ZERO attention to Kris Valloten (well, clearly you didn’t pay enough attention to spell his name correctly).” and then you gossip about him and libel him. Ever meditate on what the Word says about gossip, slander and backbiting? Sorry, it’s a silly question. OF course you haven’t.
Spelling kind of gets your goat I see. May I have your forgiveness.
I see your chasing me around the net. Nice to have a fan. Hopefully I can speak a few things that will help you get free.
Let me ask you this:.
Was it gossip and slander when John and Jesus himself called a bunch of men in a public setting a brood of vipers ?
I do pay zero attention to Kris. I just tune out people who go off on eschatological field trips that have no scripture to support it.
I take this subject as a critical one for the time we live in. It isn’t a side issue nor is it unknowable or a useless.and wasteful place to spend ones study time. Jesus told us to be alert to the seasons and especially this one.
Look, You have a more than serious lapse of equitable judgment in appropriate spiritual priorities. You’re too spiritually dull to understand that speaking critically behind a man’s back is a far greater offense to the LORD Jesus than His value of your eschatological views. In terms of “value,” your “critical” evaluation (of eschatology) in comparison to the way you libeled the Lord’s beloved is offensive to God and if you could hear His voice and GENUINELY wanted to hear His opinion, He would tell you that I’m telling you the truth. When you called Him “Lord,” that meant Lord by His determination, not yours.
But. I see that I am totally wasting my time trying to help you see, so sorry for wasting your time and mine.
It would seem to me that writing what i think in a public forum is in the face and not behind the back. They speak in a public arena and this is the modern way of commenting on their thought train.Those who take the position that others have no right to comment on their teaching are deceived.
Your just twisting truth around thinking to make me look bad. That is fine with me. I could care less what you are anyone think about me.
(I am enjoying your subtle slandering of my person and maturity though.
Press in friend your exposing yourself well.)
Kris theologically, as far as eschatology goes, is not on on solid ground. That is what this discussion is about. I have sat around some of his cohorts and apart from Bill Johnson don’t pay them no mind either.
love ya, your wrong, adios,
“It would seem to me that writing what i think in a public forum is in the face and not behind the back.”
I read nothing past that because you’re despicably dishonest and it’s offensive when liars lie to my face. You don’t need to be told that you have ZERO reason to think Chris Vallotton is following you around the net so that you and he can be “face to face.” You need integrity which you don’t have.
You’re not “a voice in the wilderness.” You’re taking a dump in the wilderness.
Your rather nasty friend. I am done conversing with you.
Because you asked: “Was it gossip and slander when John and Jesus himself called a bunch of men in a public setting a brood of vipers ?”
It was neither. To a man’s face is the biblical way to criticize a man (or men); not behind his back. That’s exactly what John did and it is exactly what Jesus did and this truth is plainly taught in your Bible and it’s FAR more important to God, AS evidenced by Jesus’ first, second and His “new” commandment (Jn 13:34-35), which you don’t value or hear.
By asking whether it was gossip and slander, you reveal deceit in your question, because I don’t believe you’re so stupid that you don’t know what gossip and slander are. Both John and Jesus spoke directly to the Pharisees and Sadducees, not in a crowd about them. Both were better men than to do that.
Dear John Burton.
Your post is a breath of fresh air to me. I resonate with it so strongly, and I have never met you, or even heard of you until today.
I belong to a small group of Christians in Kent, UK, that are attached to Bethel Church, Redding. I too have noticed certain statements to be very strange. things like “God is in a good mood.” and “The world is getting better.” Really kooky thoughts.
Now I love what is coming out of Bethel, and I love the fact that families are getting healed, physical healing is occurring and stuff like that. I love the positive mindset, that God is truly good. That all rings huge bells of truth for me. Yet I find myself in complete agreement with everything you have written above.
What then is to be done? We must be completely faithful to all God is teaching us, while keeping our love on “K.Y.L.O.” as they would say at Bethel, towards those in the body of Christ that we disagree with. We must continually bless our brothers and sisters, even those that we very sharply disagree with, because God is alone the judge, because it is “Before his own master that he stands or falls”, because we are commanded to “bless our enemies, and pray for those who spitefully use you.”
The apostle Paul grievously attacked the early church, killing many of them. The church prayed blessing upon him, according to Christ’s teaching. He became the foremost apostle of his age, maybe of all time.
We have a lot to learn about following the Lamb, while strongly disagreeing with folk.
I love what you have done here. I will now follow your work much more closely.
The peace of the LORD be yours, Chris.
I’ll stick with Valloton on this one.
Although I do wish he had taken a more clear stand on what his eschatology is (as opposed to just confronting the generally negative attitude we often see among Christians about the “end times.”)
Maybe he wishes to avoid actually calling himself a postmillennial (if that is what he is).
I am somewhere in the postmillennial or optimistic amillennial viewpoint. I don’t buy the dispensational premillennial angle at all.
Rather than guessing what Kris is meaning, why didn’t you just ask him what he meant in the context he was saying it. I doubt you disagree as much as you think you might.
I tried to be extremely fair and honoring in my reply. There wasn’t any guesswork involved, really. I replied exactly to the positions he clarified in his article.
It is now here: http://krisvallotton.com/my-8-eschatological-core-values/
Thank you John Burton for speaking truth into this!